Reusing DV Tape

[morsemedia]

We shoot a good deal of mini DV tape for weddings and events. We shoot with 3 different GL-1's and an XL1-S. Thus far we've only used new tape for all these events, but it's getting costly. Does anyone re-use mini DV successfully? I come from the old analog school where we used to bulk erase all tapes before re-using them. Is there something similar for digital tape? Thanks!

[andre c]

You could re-shoot over them. But you said you do weddings and events. Souldn't the cost of stock, (tape) be in the budget for shooting these things so it doesn't come out of your pocket?
Just a thought...
luck

[katverity]

go ahead and reuse them but i would suggest recording black over them and then fastforwarding and rewinding the tape.
the ff and rwd process pulls in the slack of the tape and helps to get a seamless recording.
this is also good to do with brand new tapes that have gotten slack from being in packaging for a while.

[Nathan]

Make sure that the tape you are about to re-use has been rewound. DV tapes that have been "parked" in the middle somewhere during storage have given me bad drop outs at that spot. Always rewind your DV tapes fully before storing them in the "re-use" box.

[Josh]

Sony says a DV tape should be able to be rerecorded 3000 times without any problem.

[JRCX]

How many times is it ok to use and re-record over a MiniDV tape? Are you running a risk if you tape over it and reuse it more than 5 times?

[lebonimenteur]

When friction is involved...

Can you afford a reshoot to save a few $$ ? It depends on the project you're taping. But for what I know, too many things can go wrong without setting youself up with used tapes.

So I'm stuck with hundreds of tapes.

[Patrick Mac]

Unless you like drop-out, you should use high-quality virgin tape on each shoot...unless you're taping your dog doing tricks.

You should also get in the habit of checking your capstan roller in your camera. When it becomes shiny, it's time to replace it.

P

[Twofer]

I agree, NEVER use a tape more than once, unless you are taping your dog doing tricks, like Patrick said. Drop-out's and Break through will plague your project.

Chris

[Josh]

The tape specialist at Sony once said a mini-DV tape could be rerecorded 3000 times with no dropouts.

(I have never tried this- I keep everything just in case- but then again I do not have a dog, and my cats don't do tricks)

[JRCX]

Just to follow up, I read in a recent VIDEOMAKER magazine that in 10-20 years time (depending on the storage conditions) the lubricant on the tapes will act like adhesive and become so gummed up that the tapes will not play at all (provided they are not played often, I imagine that they must be dormant for a decade in order for that to happen) other tips included "packing the tapes", fast forwarding them, then rewinding fully, its not a good idea to leave tapes fully rewound.

What they were not able to verify, is ONLY using ONE type of tape... I was once told by a professional that if you use sony, then panasonic, then fuji, you will eventually gum up the heads of your camera because each company uses a different lubricant on their tapes, and switching from one brand to another will be harmful to your equipment. The article did not clarify if this was a one time issue that has been corrected or if its a myth all together, but i have heard it from like 3 different sources.

About the 3000 recordings/plays, I personally do not think any tape will ever stand 3000 recordings/plays, I would think the tape would eventually be transparent like scotch tape long before that, perhaps it was an over zealous salesperson... simple math tells you that this could not happen anyway, unless you used it every day for 10 years, in which case, refer to the first paragraph above...

In any case, thanks for the input guys!

[Josh]

The Sony guy was the head guy in charge of the Sony tape division that manufactures DV tape.

I have a lot of MiniDV tape shot 8 years ago that still looks fine (I think- maybe I should watch some of those tapes!). Remember that getting data from a digital tape is much easier than from an analog tape- all the heads need to do is determine whether a bit is a one or zero.

[JRCX]

Thanks for the feedback Josh, can you ask your contact about the heads gumming up if you keep switching tapes? I hope he will be able to provide an unbiased answer, even if not, I ONLY USE SONY, however, every once in awhile a client comes to me with something is not sony and I have no choice but to use/digitize it from my players/camera... even more recently, I got about 5 MiniDVs from 8mm film transfers, and even though I specifically requested SONY, I got panasonic... again, forced to use them at least once to digitize and/or make copies... it was a "favor" so I could not refuse or complain about the tapes they used.

[Bobby_Macho]

I had trouble with drop frames and at a time I was blaming the tapes. But the it was my firewirecable that was not good enough and too long. I've used tapes over 10 times without any trouble. Well, after I got a real cable I just haven't had any trouble at all. :)

[Patrick Mac]

I just seems that tape cost is almost insignificant...especially miniDV... to run the risk of multiple drop-outs on a used tape. At what point do you STOP re-using a tape? After it exibits an abnormal amount of dropout on the scenes you just shot that day? Kinda late, isn't it?
My tapes cost about $30 each, and I never re-use them.

Again, dog tricks in the backyard; no problem. Paying client? Better use new!

Patrick Mac

[JRCX]

Hey Patrick, I appreciate your imput and agree with you for the most part. $30/tape you pay? are you using DV Cam? MiniDV i think were $10 and now down to less than $5 and yes, you are right, why waste a day or even an hour when we are only talking a few dollars, but here is the realistic situation:

I have over 100 tapes, some are 4 years old, some are "nearly" virgins... due to incorrect labelling and lack of organization, i often dont know which is which, i started to keep ORIGINAL labels on all and use a dot on each to signify how many times i have used it, so something with 5 dots or more sends up a red flag in my mind.

Again, why use them more than 5 times? Well, sometimes its an un-approved edited master i put out to on a virgin tape, then it comes back with minor (or major) changes, i reuse that tape for something else. A shoot comes up at the very last minute, i grab what tapes i can, not having time to order more, and then the shoot runs longer than anticipated (i.e. wedding and/or live event). At the same time, a client worth thousands, you only shoot 20-30 mins of video, but dont dare record over (or in addition too) that raw footage... now you have 3 tapes with total time of an hour shot.

So, as you can see, in all the confusion, its not always practical to use virgin tapes. Yes, at one time i had 10-20 virgin tapes on hand, but i said "let me use these 2-3 tapes for this shoot just to be sure" and after half a dozen shoots, they are all gone, when working on a tight budget, you can see the need to curb the use of virgin tapes even though the cost may be insignificant, it all adds up (quickly).

Yes, if its my neice walking for the first time, or dog playing tricks, who cares, but if its a candid of a major star from the sopranos or al pacino in a local diner (yes, it has happend to me) then yes, obviously i will use a virgin tape, usually, i have at least one virgin tape and one used one in my laptop/camera case, but if i dont have time to go home, you know either/or/both will be used if time is limited.

Sorry to type so much :)

[Patrick Mac]

Well sure, in emergency situations, any tape will do. But you should always keep a case (12 or so) on hand. Try to establish a line of credit at a tape supplier in your city. When you get a call for a shoot (which is rarely on the same day), you can have a case delivered to your house, and the invoice probably won't be due for 20-30 days.

In regards to tapes that are over 4 years old (especially weddings), I'd try to either find the couple and send them the tapes or pitch them. Old tapes are kinda like old production magazines...you store them year after year, but you never read them. Pretty soon the mags are out of date. And more than likely, your shooting/lighting skills have improved over those 4 or 5 years, and the old tapes look it and you won't want anyone to see them.

Sure, hold on to really nice shots; "demo reel" stuff; or family archives...but old weddings? I'd pitch them, otherwise they will end up in an old box up in your attic or something.

No offense, but if $30 for 10 tapes makes things too tight, then you're either not charging enough or you're doing too many shoots for free. Get about 6 used tapes and label them WORK TAPE to use over and over again.

P Mac

PS: I shoot BetaSP metal tapes. I did an offshore oil/gas documentary 4 years ago and used about 150 tapes. Talk about an editing nightmare!

[JRCX]

150 BetaSP Tapes, wow! How long are they each? Not to ask the obvious/silly question but was that all necessary? How long was the finished piece?

ok here is the real question: Which is the best quality overall, BetaSP (which i know is analog) DVCam or MiniDV -- i am told that the quality between beta & dvcam is 50/50 but some prefer beta (maybe because they feel they can make use of dying equipment)... but is there a significant difference between lets say Beta & MiniDV and/or MicroDV (is that even still around or did that die out quick?)

Tech specs are lost on me, so if we can establish BetaSP or DVCam as perfect "9 or 10" where would mini & microdv fall just for the sake of simple terms? I realize the camera might also be a key factor, but that aside...

[Patrick Mac]

Well, I have my own opinions on Beta vs DV vs mini-DV, and was roundly raked-over-the coals for posting them, so I'll stay out of that topic.

I had filmed the installation of an offshore oil/gas platform from beginning to end over a period of two or three years. I still do that type of work and average 50 to 75 thirty-minute beta tapes, depending on how comprehensive the client wants to get.

P

[Josh]

Using different brands of DV tape is bad.

Clean your heads, then STICK TO ONE BRAND!

[JRCX]

Josh, stupid question:

How do you clean the heads? I have seen those "cleaner tapes" but after seeing what it did to one DV deck, I was not impressed... what are my alternatives and approximate costs? Do i have to go back to the dealer like SONY or are there local places that can do it?

How often should you clean the heads? After 100 hours of use or less?

I am a little ashamed to admit I have a SONY MiniDV palmcorder (DCR-PC5), it was my first DV camera and I got it really just to "play around" with, it has served me very well for nearly 4 years, never a problem thus far... 90% of the time i use SONY tapes but have never cleaned the heads on it, or anything else for that matter...

[Patrick Mac]

If you don't mind my butting in, you're probably due for a new capstan pinch roller replacement. You need to take it in to any consumer electronics shop; doesn't have to be SONY. The rubber hardens and can start to deform. Pretty soon, you'll be winding tape around your capstan, and *%@#*. While it's in there, have them clean the video heads and de-mag the audio heads. Actually, you may want to just buy a new one rather than spend the money on service!

You can go to Comprehensive to find any head cleaner you need.
http://www.comprehensiveinc.com/compvideo/default.asp

Stay away from the abrasives as one second on the abrasive takes one hour's wear off the head. Use a solutions-based cleaner. These tapes can get into the small nooks and crannys where a tool cannot. And those mini-XYZ's are so smallll!

Theoretically, you should clean your heads at the beginning of each day's shoot. But for just recreational home movies, once a month should do. The adhesives they use these days to hold the oxide is much better than it used to be 10 years ago.

Good Luck

Patrick

PS: You might refer to your owners manual if you still have it.

[Unregistered]

hey i need help is there any way to erase a dv tape

[Josh]

Record over it.

[JRCX]

Yes, you can record over it, that is the easiest thing to do but there are also electromagnets and even these machines like a conveyor belt that you pass it thru and it completely scrambles the magnetic particles "erasing" what video is on there in seconds, but that is only if you have a LOT of videotapes to erase... if its just one DV, record black over it, or destroy it (not sure if your goal is to remove content and keep the tape or if there is something you don't want anyone else to get a hold of, if that is the case, id rather just destroy a $5 tape than to kill an hour or 2 recording over it and risk having it found with still some video on there.)

[Unregistered]

I'm also looking to erase my tapes for a different reason. I only tape dog tricks and home stuff, and everything is getting transfered to PC and then to DVD. When transfering from a new tape, the software sees the break in scenes and automatically starts a new file. On re-records, it just puts everything into 1 file - which I need to break apart manually into some logical order. Does anyone know if it's just looking at the background color, or something else on the tape that says 'hey, I'm a recorded video!'? If it's background color, I can just tape a blue or black screen. Or I wonder what if I hit the whole tape with a strong magnet???

Thanks...

[jason_h782001]

ok so I'm bringing an old thread back. I have a related question though. I'm shooting with a Sony HVR-Z1U for work. I have a Digital Master tape, and a bunch of "consumer level" mini dv tapes as well. I know it's not recommended to use different tape brands, but should I not use different variations of tapes within the same brand? IE will it promote dropouts, dersi on the tapeheads...etc if I switch between using the Digital Master tapes vs the consumer level tapes?

[cbreaker]

This is a difficult topic because there's really no hard evidence either way.

Personally, I just don't worry about it. I re-record over tapes (I try to stripe them with bars or blank video before reusing if I can, just to make things cleaner) and I use all different brands, including whatever brand off the shelf at the drug store tapes.

I never have a problem. I am using a Sony HDR-FX1 primarily and I have only once ever had a dropout, and it was because the camera was shaking.

Now, if I have a problem in the future remains to be seen. Will my tape heads get all gunked up because of the different lubricant issue? Only time will tell. I do have an older DV camcorder that still works fine and it's had many hundreds of tapes sent through it, all different types.

I'm sure the "professional" HDV tapes are good tapes. The white Sony tapes look cool, and I'm sure they're good quality, but I just can't justify the price. Sure, the camcorder wasn't cheap but if you start only buying really expensive tapes, it won't take long before you spend more on expensive tapes then you would on a replacement tape unit in the camera.

Besides, I'm fairly certian that all these tapes are manufactured on the same assembly lines anyways. Label one as premium, and one as consumer. They're both great tapes, but you'll pay more for premium. That way, the consumer gets a choice. Take CPU's for an example: many CPU's in a generation are the same exact CPU, and some are set to 2000Mhz and some are set to 2500Mhz. It gives the consumer a choice of price/performance, but they're exactly the same CPU. (Obviously with a tape, there's no speed ratings, so you get 100% use from the "lower end" tapes.)

People can get really picky about things like this. Is it "worth the risk" of reusing tapes or using "consumer" tapes? I think it is, because I don't see much risk at all.

It's like anything else. It's a good thing to be aware and cautious, but there's also being over-cautious. It's up to you to decide what is best for you.

[cbreaker]

When transfering from a new tape, the software sees the break in scenes and automatically starts a new file. On re-records, it just puts everything into 1 file - which I need to break apart manually into some logical order.

This really depends on the software.

Chances are that if you're observing this behavior, your camcorder isn't continuing the time code from the previous record (it's starting a little after the last recording, and since blank tape has no timecode, it starts over) and the software you're using sees these timecode resets and uses that to break up the scenes.

When reusing a tape, most camcorders will read the current timecode and continue from there. So, since there's no more breaks in the timecode the software won't do it's scene detection.

That's all assuming it works that way. I've heard of other software that will do scene detect based on the changes from frame to frame. When shooting, even with a fast pan, many pixels stay the same from frame to frame. If you stop recording then start, usually the whole picture will instantly change.

I know of no way to erase a DV tape of it's timecode once it's layed down. I was actually doing a Google to find out how, and landed here. Thought I'd put in a few words. There may be a software that can do it, but my hunt continues.

The funny thing is, sometimes I'll stripe a tape ahead of time, on purpose to avoid timecode resets! I'll record all blank video or bars. It's better for me to have the timecode continue from 0 to 63 minutes throughout the entire tape no matter where I begin recording. That way, I can label specific tape timecodes, and tell Premiere to head directly there for capturing off the tape. It's easier then hunting around using FF or REW.

[txwombat]

Time to continue this thread?
I've be running a Panasonic DV 953 for about 1 year - probably put through about 10 to 12 complete tapes at the most - i've cleaned it a few times with a Mini DV tape cleaner (no fluid type) - becuase when I re-use tapes - the sound very often either dosn't record - or it cuts in / out...

Any Ideas if this is due to the tapes being re-used or if its the camera? - I don't really have much of a problem with blead throough on the video......


Thanks,
Jason.

[Josh]

The only way to know for sure is to try a new tape and see...

[nij]

I also film weddings, and after experiencing some rare dropouts on one particular occasion on a re-used DV tape when I was thankfully filming a 'non-important' event I decided to always use NEW DV tapes for shooting any important events (such as weddings, as I don't think it's worth the risk) and being ok with re-using DV tapes for not-so-important events. With weddings, the cost of new DV tapes should obviously be covered anyway, and besides, it's always a good idea to keep the tapes as backup coverage should there by any problem in post-production or with the PC, etc. Why would anyone want to record over wedding coverage? For playing around type of stuff, I'd re-use DV tapes as it's obviously not as critical. I've heard too never to swap brands of DV tape, if you're using a Sony camcorder always use Sony DV tapes, or Canon, Panasonic, etc as they use different types of lubricants on the tape which mix on the play/record heads and may then require a professional head clean. I use Sony DV tapes, and always use a Sony Head Clean tape every now and then to keep the heads clean.

[MARVINBOTTS]

Here's some thoughts... I know that I read on the care and use instructions of the Canon GL2, XL1, and Sony DVR 25 deck that ONE use per tape is recomended!

It kinda depends on your risk tolerance... Can you tolerate dropouts? Used tapes WILL drop out even with the excellent advice of recording black over them and rewinding/forwarding.

And yes... the older the tapes, the higher the dropout rate. Here's what I suggest:

When in the studio, I ALWAYS record to new tape, a live capture on FCP, AND as a safety net record to DVD live as well! I recomend a firestore/tape recording combination when going portable. You can try to recreate historical events, but you can screw up recording live ones without any effort! Perhaps this 3X recording seems like too much... Well, having a background in computer networking, I religiously use 3 forms of backup when possible... It's not just Murphy's law... When you have a number of people helping, and so much at stake if loss occurs, I make sure there is a fallback plan. My philosophy is that quality is no accident, and accidents are rarely quality!

I look at it this way... What is the value of my time, the participants time and effort, the significance of the event, the risk factor of losing the footage, and if it isn't worth at least a new tape, then perhaps I should take up a less expensive hobby...

Marvin